Few ideas on the game

Hi,

here are few ideas for the codename Govern game, let me know if I go too off track.

Game Objectives - clear, as defined in design document.

Back strory - clear, as defined in design document

Game scene / City Details
I know we talked about the version where all races will take place somewhere in water. As the background idea is to win the race to govern city - it is a bit odd to see rendered city in city selection just in the beginning, and then just on the end "you made it, city is yours".

My idea is to make set of Potiemkin assets, typical for each city. It would be nice if there would be one broken wall in each city ( or something like that ) with some grafitty from Adrastos (= the rebel force, did I get it right? ). Else there is no evidence rebels mean it seriously, and you would "fight" invisible enemy.

I would maybe restrict the number of cities to 4 or even 3, to keep the amount of art to be done on acceptable level.
Surrounding track with assets from city will make it more eye candy, more rich for the gamer.
I do not want anyone to model city as seen in GTA or Assasins Creed, just some typical elements to be placed around the track.

To connect the racing with the goal of game more - after each race there could be short kind of animation with newspapers, with captions like "Racers of Adrastos won again, dawn of technology is getting closer" or "Talented racer from Ukko showed back to Adrastos"

I am sorry text got longer than acceptable, but I hope you will like some of the ideas.


Petr

I don't think I follow the comment about GTA...

Since these will essentially be a closed track, I was thinking cities would just be towering visual obstructions to the drop-off horizon. Possibly only seeing a tree-top, water and clouds.

I love the newspaper and city-wall idea. Each section having a track/race you have to win for control, for your selected "home". That can be made real political. Possibly gaining you items/weapons from that fully conquered city to add to your arsenal.

Would we have to reduce a racer per full conquer? (Since that would be you racing you. So to speak.)

We could keep the 7 people, but only have 4 cities.With each city having 4-5 tracks, already dominated by a defending racer. That specific racer could be harder, while we force the other non-dominating racers to purposely loos to him... so cities would not actually change dominance to anyone other than you. Or, that would be interesting. The city dominance changes, and it becomes an AI free-for-all, in any race you participate in.

The obvious "Foilers" would be the non-race-entrant vagabond guys. (Since they are not there for the race, they could just swoop-in and wreak random havoc on racers, before an AI-race-cop drives them off, or they get bored, and just drive away. We could safely assume that road-mines and mag-strips and anything else bad laying on the track, was a creation of them being there.)

Oh, I forgot to add... (From what I remember, when I was talking to Petr.)

I would like to suggest that the "Shields" we use for the game, be a universal "Orb" style... They do not have to be visually seen, just suggested by the impact-sparks, and collision sparks between two players colliding.

The reasons I am suggesting this, are many...
- It sort-of explains why things are not falling off of our ships when large weapons hit us, or we collide over and over.
- It super-simplifies collision detection, giving us more cpu-cycles for making the game play better, or look great.
- It is universal among strengths... No physical 3D "Bulking" needs to be done, to represent more powerful shields.
- It can help explain the, "Non-flipping", or cat-like, "Land on your feet", which most races have. (Possibly, a flip-over, but a tractor-beam re-positions you to the track, so you can finish with your lower time.)
- If there is time, and we use the TBEM, it can "Pulse" the shield, with an alpha-glow, for a dramatic effect. (Mostly to let you know it is there.)
- Force shields are the wave of the future, everyone has them... Why not us!
- Also helps to explain why we don't tarnish when fired at... (Burn marks.)

I think that is it... for that idea...

One more suggestion... in light of the news-paper idea... but taking it one step more into... well... odd...

Have goofy ads, purposely setup like a news-paper flyer, or a pamphlet, to advertise the weapons/shields/etc... which you select to buy.

Sample reading...

Picture a "ON-SALE" spiked star border, with an artistic drawn, or 3d, Missile in the center.

Below reads...
"Tiny's Super Mach-45 Nitro-Slicer!"
"Load ten of these bad-boys into your missile rack, and shave the skin clear off your enemies bones! It'll sting like pouring nitro into an open wound... Guaranteed."

Fine Print...
"Only the sensation of pouring nitro into an open wound is guaranteed, missiles are subject to user accuracy and non-obstructed collision targets. No other use will be reimbursed for a refund. Shaving is optional."

Followed by the Prices, Quantities, etc... where you actually select it. (As more becomes available, they show. Nothing shows if it is not available, or you are broke.)

Since you will be at the news-paper transition, and not into another race yet... it would sort-of go with the flow.

Good idea with those pamphlets.

Regarding my comment on GTA - you say you did not get it but your summarization is +/- what I meant:

Quote:

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Since these will essentially be a closed track, I was thinking cities would just be towering visual obstructions to the drop-off horizon. Possibly only seeing a tree-top, water and clouds.

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I agree on this, an maybe tops of some higher buildings.
That means not modelling mesh of whole city, just some elements like those tree tops, few types skyscrappers.

Your idea for about 4 races in one city seems good to me. Enough to enjoy the look and not get bored soon.


Petr

Like you said... it allows for more object recycle potential...

We could get real creative, and turn one building into four...

Upside-down, is another view. (Still one object loaded.)

Turned around is another view. (Still the same object.)

Can TBGL swap axis's? (Reverse left to right.)

Hi Jason,

Quote:

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We could get real creative, and turn one building into four...

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I would be happy to see this, it depends on artists. So even you and your Sketch-Up skills. Hurry up :)
More spectacular city, better.

Swapping axis ... this is possible for example using TBGL_Scale with -1 for some axis, but I do not recommend it much :)
Maybe some parameter on map loading could help to do it in some clean way.


Petr

I am on the wrong page in understanding I think... Seeing the track editor examples so far, I can't see how it will tie into the city designs?

Are we to make individual buidings? And then the track editor would place both items and tracks?

Or do we modelers model the whole city and track?

I would imagine that the editor would make the track, based on the city-type... and include the non-track items to be positioned around the completed track...

EG, once you have a "Closed" or complete loop/track... You would go into city edit? (As opposed to constantly moving everything around, and having to track two separate grids at once. Grids would not be available where a track covers that slot.)

Though, I do think the scale of the track needs adjustment. There is no mention of grid-scale, but the track suggests that it is only a few meters wide. A 90-degree turn needs to be about 30-50 meters square. (That would make the track, as it is now, over 50 meters tall, by that scale.)

Visually, it just needs to be flatter and thinner, thinner towards the center of the grid, as if the grid was actually a 5*5 grid. EG, a 5*5 with a straight pass would only be 1/5 as wide as the grid, but all 5 long.

In the sand-box, the vehicles are only 1 meter wide and 2 meters long, but a car is closer to 2 meters by 3 meters. The track should be able to hold 4-6 cars wide, which would make the width of a 1/5 grid be around 8-12 meters wide. (Lets just say 10 meters or 5 cars wide... not including the banked edges, which should be at-least 2 cars wide also. Plus, the banks need a wall to keep us in the track, and help reduce ground visuals. Lets say the walls are 1 meters thick. This pushes us to a track-width of 10 + 4 + 4 + 1 + 1 = 20 meters. That would be 1/5, so a full block would 20 * 5 = 100 * 100 meters per square. That gives us a 90-degree turn at the 2/5 inner edge, which is an inner radius of 40 meters, and an outer radius of 60 meters. That is still a tight turn, even for a race-car.)

I will make a full-size track using those specs, and throw it into the sand-box, so we can push the editor into a semi-final stage. That may help give some insight into how we may handle the surroundings better also.

Jason, which editor are you talking about?

The track editor you are working on... :-\

Is there another one?

Well, here is the above mentioned setup, as a full sized track. I set it up with slightly better controls, more like a car. (Just pretend it is hovercraft super-computer stabilizers helping you.)

100 meters wide blocks. Track is composed of 10 of these 6 turns (elbows) and 4 straight sections.

The bank on the track is 4 meters on each side, with the 1 meter thick upper walls. The track is 10 meters wide in the center, between the banks. The full track width is 20 meters. Inner turn radius is 40 meters, outer turn radius is 60 meters. (Though, banked turns would be nice... I didn't have that much time for an exotic setup. Plus, they still don't collide yet.)

Camera views are F1, F2, F3, F4... Craft control is the arrows. (I only put 10 points for the crafts to follow, but you can see that they could use a little more guidance, or brains.)

I added my test-ship also... (Only the ground/water has an image on it. The M15 models do not have image-maps yet.)

I turned off the buildings because they are still in the old locations. (I just fixed my corrupted graphics drivers, so I could only play for a little while. I will be throwing in some larger M15 files and mapped objects to give me an idea how detailed the track can potentially get.)

I have attached the zip of the program, and an image of g-force, speeds and turn radius data.

60 meters (The outer turn radius) is roughly 197 feet. That places a "car" at around a 45 MPH speed limit, before they slide off an unbanked road. But, like I said, we can make the crafts stick to the track like glue, and cover it up with the story. Even my larger radius and width feels a little restrictive. (Talking about the track.)

Ok, going back to create buildings...

Jason, wow you are doing some great work. I really like how you are thinking about all the aspects and demonstrating it.

On the next release can you also add perhaps a camera height adjustment for the chase camera only. I would love to see the chase from different heights. I personally feel a lower camera would feel better, but with an adjustable camera height the player could adjust to what they prefer or we could have some presets as in many race games.

Hi Jason,

very nice demo :)
Did you used SketchUp for design of pieces?


Petr

Ok Jason, very nice demo.

As I see that you might be caple of doing it, would you like to take over the track editor development? I could concentrate more on the gui functionset and art/music.

I might be able to do the track editor... But I am having difficulty understanding all your good code. (That is a total compliment.)

You have put so much thought into the function... It surpasses my understanding of how it actually functions. (I sort-of understand some of the code, but there is a lot there which I do not understand. (Anything I did to the editor would be a complete hack. Trust me, I already tried to make changes to it, without any luck.)

The changes I was trying to make, were related to the grid-size. I put one of the full scale parts in the object folder, and it doesn't like them. The grid-size is microscopic to the life-size parts. The best I could do, was change the grid-value, to match the red base to the part. But the camera would not handle the zoom needed to view even one part. It went out into space, and that is where I got lost. (The "Preview" camera also became visible, because it was "Above" the grid, not below it, behind a clipping plain.)

However... What I/we can do... is come-up with a compatible format between the editor, and the game. We are at the point where we need to start knowing some of the dimensions before anything can progress. (We already have the 1unit = 1meter, standard. But now things like track-size/scale, ship size/scale, world/city size/scale, are needed for the rest of the formulas.)

As is the case with the editor... It is not scalable, the way it is programmed. (It is nearly impossible to make a program handle all possible values. Even my code will not work a scale-up larger than 10, or smaller than 0.01)

Actually, the only issue I had with a world larger than 500units x 500units... was a comment in the help-files which was about the view-distance.

Quote:

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Default value is 150 meters
Please keep in mind the bigger the draw-distance is, the worst precision Z order operations you get !

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I don't know if that was talking about a literal issue with the number 150... which it states above the comment. Or if it was just mentioning a trait of GL, which is related to overall scale in distance. 150 should hold no significance, but that statement suggest that beyond 150meters (by our case), that issues are expected.

I see an issue with lighting, using such large numbers in the game values... Lights don't seem to match, or function correctly. (Ambient and Point.) They are not ambient, and the point does not function on all surfaces the same. (Mostly the smooth, it will shade two flat triangles on the same plain with two complete opposite shades. Turn the track to SMOOTH and not PRECISE, and inspect the outside and connection pieces.)

OMG, I was just thinking that... (Comment about the views.)

This morning, after I posted this... I changed the camera to a close hood-view, close-behind view, in-craft view... Now 80 MPH looks like 80 MPH. (Well, closer to 80. I still need to put other things in the game for motion scale.)

Yes, that was sketch-up to make those parts. I set the units to Meters, and exported them as units. (I like sketch-up because it is fast to make things. Draw a square, pull it up, you get a box. Draw a square on the box, push it in, you have a door. Push it in all the way, you have a bridge. Load a CAD wall-profile for a house, pull it up, you have a house with no roof. Draw a square, draw a line through the center, pull the line up, you have a roof.)

With the new V6 being free from google, it makes a nice tool for 3D, if you have the OBJ export thing.

Just don't expect to make GTA or MORROWIND with it.

I am playing with the news-paper idea, but I can't seem to get the fonts to work. (One more thing to learn.)

I was thinking that the same camera in the editor which shows the preview, could be used to create track/scenery icons for selection, as opposed to the list-view. (In the future, not now.) Projecting a BMP onto a simple square as a button for selecting the part. Once selected, it goes into the preview window, above the icon area and spinning to show you a 360 view.

I am still trying to think of how we can have the rebels interact with us, as non-cup racers.

[quoteI am still trying to think of how we can have the rebels interact with us, as non-cup racers.[/quote]

I thought they could be the ones that place bad pickup items in the race:
bombs (make you tumble for loss of time)
slicks (make you slide and spin again for loss in time)
engine pulse( slows down your glider to half speed for a time)

That too... but by interaction, I am talking about how they do that...

EG, would they be throwing them over the race-wall... Dropping them from fly-over vehicles... Jumping into a race with us, as another craft, and dispersing havok that way... Or purely silent and suggestive... and we just assume that the still-obstruction in the road ahead, was placed by them... (Sticking to the "Unseen" element in the story.)

Even something like a sabotaged craft element... (Suddenly in a race, your guidance system that controls your turn-assistance goes buggy, and you have reduced steering... Thus, needing a replacement item. It would still work, but perform unpredictably... over-steering to the left, or just generally.)

Would they have the power to "Raise Anarchy" in a conquered city/track, once won, if you only won it by a few seconds... (Spreading propaganda, demanding another race... Possibly even racing them at that point, since they are the political challengers. "Hey, I think your win was a fluke, the people think so too... Prove you are worthy of running this city!" Thus, until the challenge is met, you no longer gain any items that that city provided. Though you would keep what is still working on your craft. But you could never say you are the ruler of all cities until you race them. Or have another race for keeping that city/track.)

Hi,

regarding the view distance and visual impact.
It is not directly true everything beyond 150 is terrible, and smaller than 150 nice.

The problem is related to depth scaling. The problem is - some card support only 16bit Z-Buffer. That means, they can differentiate only 65 536 different depth values.

For 150 meters it means 65 536 / 150 ~= 437 levels of depth per meter, which is resolution of about ~1/4 of centimeter. Bigger the distance, bigger the artifacts ( worse the resolution of depth ).

Some GPU vendors use advanced Z buffer compression techniques allowing much better precision ( ATi, NVIDIA ), so the final look is really good ... some others do not care and that is why the output is often really ugly.

So good to keep this in mind. I recommend frequent testing on Intels especially...


Petr

Guys I need tile sizes that the editor will use both for tracks and city tiles.

My thoughts:
Each City 2km x 2km
Each City is 4 Quadrants (parts of town): Business, Residential, Factory, Educational/Recreational
Each Quadrant is 1km x 1km
How many tiles should we have in each quadrant for the editors?

I am thinking the track and city tiles should be the same size. This way I can make city blocks with tracks going under bridges for example in buildings or tunnels and the open tracks can work well with the city.

What do you guys think of the sizes also I am open to any other suggestions. But it would be nice to finalize this so I can start modeling. Thanks.

I am noticing that items on my glitched video card begin to intermix at about a view-length just over 1000 units.

That would be about 10 track lengths if we use the 100 meter track blocks which contain a track that is 20 meters wide. I am thinking that the largest track-block would be 200 by 200 (4 blocks), with other sections being within that size limit. A 200 by 200 (4 block) city object could be designated as one of the required elements of the tracks, which would be the "landmark" for tracks in the same city. Fill-in blocks should be within the same 100 by 100 meter size, so we should have enough room to envelop the track, against the horizon.

I just create a 100 meter cube and save it as an object onto another layer, as a guide. (264 by 900 feet is about a city-block in Manhattan. Our blocks would be just a hair over that size.)

I am playing with some other track-shapes, for use as non-square pieces. (2 blocks wide, L shaped, and the 4 block.) Playing with the idea about the split tracks and banked tight turns. If we decide to use them, or something similar, we should swap OBJ profiles of the track-profile of choice.

We still need to decide on a vehicle size also. (I am using the 1 meter tall, 1 meter wide, 2 meter long limit. That is more like a long personal craft, as opposed to a large "Space Ship" style craft. I was not sure how we would want to portray these. It is a little harder to visualize agile movement in a large craft, which is why I designed the smaller size. Sorry, that was the star-wars speeders image that I have stuck in my head, combined with a bob-sled style shape.

Once buildings are in the sandbox, for some visual playing, we can get a better idea of track and vehicle scale. (I suppose images on the track might also help. LOL. The track is kind-of bright. I will upload the new one with the view-changes tomorrow afternoon.)

Jason, sorry I am confused on the tile size. Are you saying the tiles should be 100 x 100 meters? Or 20x20 Meters?

I will work on skybox designs till the designers and coders establish tile sizes before I model anything.

One note, I was thinking it would be neat to be able to design buildings with track component in a tile. For example tunnels
or building bridges with track underneath. So having a uniform tile size for both city and track elements could be very beneficial.

TileUnit = 100 x 100 meters (Ones I am using)
RoadDiameter = 20 x 20 meters (Minimum for generic road)

I was trying to say...
Tile Types:
- Road-Solid {Full, no city, no road-fill}
- Road-Blank {Blank, no city, but can have road-fill}
- City-Solid {Solid city block only, can only be on unoccupied block}
- City-Fill {Designed as road-fill, can be placed only over designated road-blank}

EG, Road-Solid would occupy an irregular shape, and have generic support objects as part of the track. Such as a high-banked "S" curve that occupies a 100 x 200 tile-set.

Road-Blank would be like the ones I have in the sandbox3. They only occupy 1/5 of the tile, and have plenty of room for an overlapped city-blank to be used as fill, for that track-type. (The straight track may have 4-5 variations, but they will all be 20 x 100 meters in the 100 x 100 meter box, so one city-fill could work on multiple track-segments.)

City-Solid would be a solid chunk of city... no room for anything else.

Where a City-Fill is going to be created, for now, design it with a "Space" of 20 meters by 20 meters by 100 meters, for the track to pass through. (Until we decide on a max camera height... we want to avoid the camera passing through building structures.)

I would not design more than two "City-Fill" blocks, per track style. (Straight and 1/4 turn are the only two styles at the moment. I have attached the 3DS files. Take note, the 3DS files have a "Box-Ring" as a base-guide. The box-ring will not be part of the final track segments, I only used them to test alignment. The rings are 1 meter tall, and are below the ground level of the object (Like a base with an invisible top.). EG, the top of the ring is aligned to 0 meters in the sand-box.

That is why I suggested using a 100 x 100 x 100 meter cube as a guide. Assume that a normal 4-lane road runs between city-blocks for now, as if this were a large-city block. That is roughly a width of about 24 feet (8 meters) on each block-edge that should be removed from the 100 x 100 tile edge. So "Building area" would be within, 84 x 84 x 100 meters, with the 8 meter flat-road creating the remainder of the size to 100 x 100.

I am thinking, if we do all the cities over water... We can create a water-line base on the cities, like an infinite foundation, but not infinite, to extend through the water-level.

If we use walls, as city-solid structures, they can contain a similar foundation on the "inner side", so we can zoom-out, and see where the ocean meets the walls, but the ocean will not be inside the city.

I will make a quick sample of those also... for testing in the sandbox3.

The ZIP has a few 3DS files. (1 unit = 1 meter)

One of the buildings has some objects and markers in there... 3-meter floor-height, scale-car, scale-craft, scale-triangle (1x2x2)