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Thread: Faster than light

  1. #1

    Faster than light

    this year is the most dangerous year, many discoveries, volcanoes, social rages, nuclear disasters, ... , so be carefull to the end of the year.
    1- a possible faster than light just recently:
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7KN25Q20110923

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ound-to-travel

    2- Breakthrough Could Enable Others (like your wife) to Watch Your Dreams and Memories [Video]
    http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...emories-video/

  2. #2
    To put this in perspective, the neutrinos are being sent over a distance of 730Km and arrive 6e-8 seconds earlier than expected. This is the equivalent time it takes for light to travel 2 metres. This is a small discrepancy but I understand their instruments can resolve down to 20cm.

    Charles

    PS: Neutrinos are known for breaking the light-barrier in a dense medium (detected in water)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation
    Last edited by Charles Pegge; 23-09-2011 at 17:59.

  3. #3
    thinBasic MVPs danbaron's Avatar
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    I am pretty sure that neutrinos have mass.

    http://arstechnica.com/science/news/...ce-imaging.ars

    So, according to relativity theory, if and when one reached the speed of light, its mass should have become infinite.

    In that case, I think its gravitational field would have become infinitely strong.

    It seems to me that immediately, EVERYTHING should moved towards it with unimaginable acceleration.

    But, apparently, that didn't occur.

    So, what happened?

    http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-0923-speed-of-light-20110923,0,497738.story


    "You can't cheat an honest man. Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump." - W.C.Fields

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    thinBasic MVPs danbaron's Avatar
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    I know nothing about this stuff.

    But, I think neutrinos constantly travel through the Earth unimpeded.

    In that case, it seems to me that if one was accelerated to faster than light speed, it should still be moving that fast, what would slow it down?

    Then, since neutrinos have mass, relativity theory says that the accelerated neutrino has infinite mass.

    Therefore, the particle would generate an infinite gravitational field, and every particle in the universe should be pulled towards it by an infinite force.

    But, we are still here, so, apparently that is not happening.

    (I think the weird thing is that other particles have been accelerated close to (probably at least 99% of) the speed of light, and they have gained mass according to Einstein's equation,

    m0 = mass at rest
    mk = increased mass
    vk = velocity
    ck = speed of light

    m = m0 / sqrt(1 - (v2 / c2)). [Eq. A]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2...gy_equivalence

    You can see, when v equals c, m becomes infinite (as long m0 is greater than 0).

    Last edited by danbaron; 25-09-2011 at 05:10.
    "You can't cheat an honest man. Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump." - W.C.Fields

  5. #5
    just imagine the web speed using radiation faster than light thrice or infinite. or a cellular phone using faster than light connection. now begins the real magic era.

  6. #6
    thinBasic MVPs danbaron's Avatar
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    Eq. A, above, is only supposed to apply for v <= c.

    But, what answer would it give if a neutrino was moving faster than c?

    Say, for instance, v/c = 5/4.

    Then, if you substitute into the formula, you get,

    m = 4m0 / 3i,

    where, i = sqrt(-1).

    What physical meaning would that have?

    "You can't cheat an honest man. Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump." - W.C.Fields

  7. #7
    Beware of mathematics! It often expresses thing which do not exist in reality, like Pi with millions of digits. It is only a way of describing pattern and relationships.

    It is conceivable that we have not succeeded in creating a perfect vacuum in which to measure the maximum speed of light, and our local space within the solar envelope is not really vacuum either. Perhaps it is the elusive Aether that remains after all the atoms have been extracted, and slightly reduces the speed of light giving a false measurement for the absolute C. Then the neutrinos, small enough not to be affected by this medium would give a closer measure of C.

    We will have to see if these measurements can be verified. Do neutrinos break the speed limit only when in Italy

    Charles

  8. #8
    thinBasic MVPs kryton9's Avatar
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    I never liked having speed limits and the speed of light was one that I didn't care for. Beside some guys in Europe a few years back said they could send something and it was travelling faster than the speed of light and many poo pooed it because the egg heads said nothing could be faster than light. In an infinite universe why do scientists think we need limits, seems counter intuitive if you know what I mean.

  9. #9
    thinBasic MVPs danbaron's Avatar
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    If I had to bet, I would bet that the neutrinos do not violate Einstein's theory.

    I read some of your article - neutrinos can travel faster than light speed in water, 0.75c, but, they should not be able to attain light speed in an absolute vacuum, c.

    I absolutely agree that the discrepancy could be because of sending the neutrinos through a false vacuum.

    (I am unclear about what the neutrinos were traveling through for the 730 km, it was from one location to another, is that correct?, not through a circular tube? Was it like through the tunnel under the English Channel?)

    Anyway, since neutrinos have mass, I still don't see how they could pass through c, without acquiring infinite mass, and, like I said, it seems to me that nothing would be able to slow them down, so, if they exceeded c, there should now be an infinite gravitational field, which there apparently isn't, because, we still exist.

    (And, I agree that practically, and probably forever, pi calculated to millions of decimal places has no use (you could probably say the same for arithmetic on giant integers - no matter how fast it can be done - but, of course, how may other things that people devote time and energy to, have no external benefit, only possibly a temporary pleasant internal brain state?).

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Philosophically, I agree with you, Kent.

    Who wants to have limits?

    But, philosophers do generally believe that some things are impossible, because they violate logic.

    Like, is it possible for something to simultaneously exist and not exist (Schrodinger's cat?)?

    Is it possible to construct a triangle with four sides?

    Is it possible to untie a knot in a closed loop?

    Is it possible to travel back in time to before you were born?

    My understanding is that the inviolability of the speed of light is akin to the idea that 1 + 1 = 2.

    I think that not many people hold out much hope that a civilization a million years ahead of us will find that 1 + 1 is in some circumstances equal to something other than 2.

    Etc.



    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Concerning quantum entanglement and the violation of c,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

    to me (with my almost perfect ignorance), the most likely explanation is that the entangled particles are actually just one particle.



    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Also, will we ever have a better understanding of sub-atomic particles than those given by mathematical equations and metaphors?

    I doubt it.

    It seems to me that either there is some smallest particle from which everything is constructed, or, there is an infinite chain of smaller and smaller particles.

    I think that either case defies human understanding.

    If there is a smallest particle, then, what is it constructed from?

    And, how could there possibly be an infinite sequence of smaller and smaller particles?

    Some things, I think we are incapable of ever understanding.

    (Or, why do we exist? Can we prove that we do? Can you prove that anyone else exists besides you?)


    Last edited by danbaron; 25-09-2011 at 10:02.
    "You can't cheat an honest man. Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump." - W.C.Fields

  10. #10
    thinBasic MVPs danbaron's Avatar
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    For light (in a vacuum), 730 km (we don't know the exact distance) should take,

    730,000 / 299,792,548 = 0.002435017 s

    But, the neutrinos arrived 60 nanoseconds sooner.

    elapsed time for neutrinos = 0.002434957 s

    So, the speed of the neutrinos was approximately,

    2435017 / 2434957 * c = 1.000024641 c.

    730,000 * 0.000024641 = 17.98 m.

    So, if I'm correct, for 730 km, the neutrinos supposedly were already approximately 18 meters past the finish line, when a light beam would have arrived.

    It's strange to me, the neutrinos were just slightly faster than a light beam, approximately 1 part in 40,583.

    Why were their speeds so close to each other?

    It makes me wonder if something is wrong.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20957-dimensionhop-may-allow-neutrinos-to-cheat-light-speed.html

    How do the neutrinos decide whether or not they will take the shortcut through the extra dimension? (The difference is so small, that it doesn't seem worth it.)

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/...bolstered.html

    Is the speed of light through rock, exactly equal to c? (It seems to me it should be 0.)

    How do they know the two clocks are exactly synchronized, do they communicate?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    (And, no one says it anywhere, but, they must be implying, that if the neutrinos did exceed c, then, Einstein's equation for the mass increase, is in this case, "out the window".)

    Last edited by danbaron; 26-09-2011 at 07:04.
    "You can't cheat an honest man. Never give a sucker an even break, or smarten up a chump." - W.C.Fields

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